Welcome to Built on Bitcoin - Your home for innovation happening in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Feb. 18, 2022

E43: Creating an ETH-to-Stacks Bridge - Creator of Satoshibles & StacksBridge Brian Laughlan

Satoshibles is the NFT project for Bitcoin Enthusiasts.
But all the NFT action was on Ethereum, at least until Stacks came along.

The Satoshibles team has been working to bring their NFT collection to Bitcoin via Stacks since it's initial mint.

Hear Satoshibles creator Brian Laughlan talk about the process, the inspiration for this project and the good deeds they have been able to accomplish through the power of NFTs.

Follow Brian on Twitter: @Bruffstar
Check out Satoshibles online:

Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
Google Podcasts podcast player badge
Castro podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge

Satoshibles is the NFT project for Bitcoin Enthusiasts. But all the NFT action was on Ethereum, at least until Stacks came along. The Satoshibles team has been working to bring their NFT collection to Bitcoin via Stacks since it's initial mint. Hear Satoshibles creator Brian Laughlin talk about the process, the inspiration for this project and the good deeds they have been able to accomplish through the power of NFTs. Follow Brian on Twitter: @Bruffstar Check out Satoshibles online: https://satoshibles.com/



[00:00:00] Jake: Right. Uh, Brian, thank you for coming on the show. My man, how you doing today?

[00:00:04] Brian Laughlin: Good. Thanks for having me, Jake.

[00:00:06] Jake: It's it's a pleasure to have you. You guys have made some waves in the past week by bringing Satoshi home and creating the first ETH to Stacks bridge and, uh, Yeah.

I just want to get a pulse on how you guys are feeling right now by completing this thing, hows the community feel and what's the energy like?

[00:00:25] Brian Laughlin: Yeah, everyone's really excited. Um, it's actually been, uh, quite a long time coming. We, we, announced this in November . Last year. Um, but I've been thinking about it basically since like the foster week of our mint on Ethereum in July last year.

So thinking about how to do these Bitcoin NFTs and everything, and then Stacks came into my life and I'm like, okay, that's the one. And then try if I going to hope to get over there. Um, so yeah, it's been a long time coming and finally it's its here and I'm super happy to be like, have a presence on Stacks.

People are seeing you and the marketplace marketplaces everyone's really.

[00:00:58] Jake: Okay. Yeah. So [00:01:00] I love to just hear a little bit about what is Satoshibles cause I've seen the artwork, you know, I first went back to you guys from Trevor. Who's like the NFT pulse for me. Like whenever he's looking at I'll give a little bit of a and he was early on you guys.

So what is the project?

[00:01:16] Brian Laughlin: Yeah, exactly. Trevor was one of our early early holders he actually, he was the one who put me on to Stacks. Um, but just to go way back at the beginning, basically, I like it was end of 2020 I started to see the NFT buzzword going around and obviously I had like knowledge of CryptoKitties back in the day and I thought, oh, okay.

These are now coming back. These NFT things are kicking around. And I had a look in like, at the time, at the end of 2020, the artwork was just not good. Like I was like, I'm like, Hm, these are selling. Okay, great. But I had an idea like, okay, maybe in 2021, it's going to be like decent artists. Like, you know, can I coming with good art and it might be the time.

So I took a bet basically and gambled on it and started my own project. And I had this idea of like, well, maybe try it a Bitcoin theme one. And then the [00:02:00] idea of the meme of Dorian Nakamoto in my head. And I thought that would be really funny if I, people who get it basically and I had the idea of doing a, I want you to do like a comic book style.

So I was looking at it for an artist and that's what I found out about this artist, Ayyoub. He he's like a super, super talented comic artist and, and you know what, I gave him this photo of, of, uh, Dorian. And then he's like, who's this Japanese guy what's he got to do with a Scottish guy. Like, you know, it's easy to weird uncle or something.

And I'm like, No please, just draw it. I'll explain later, you know? And then he, he drew the thing and I'm like, great. Now take his head off, take his clothes off, take his glasses off. And this guy's like, is this guy crazy? Let me see what all that stuff. He used to use to adjust drawing like portraits of cats or whatever for people.

And he's, he thinks I'm related to this guy. And I had to explain this as an NFT and then he's like, what's an NFT. So we've been doing this whole journey together. But yeah, that's kind of where that was born. Was it was this idea of doing a funny kind of Bitcoin themed NFT. And then luckily we launched just about the time where the profile photo hype just exploded in July and Bored Apes came out.

[00:03:00] It's like absolutely massive. And we just caught that wave basically, and caught alot of the attention of the BItcoin guys. Trevor included and they contacted me and like, oh, this is really cool. I love Satoshi. And I love the idea, but like, I'm so annoyed. I have to buy it with Ethereum. Like I wish I could buy it with Bitcoin.

And then that's when Trevor put me on with the stacks, you know, and then I was like, since then, I've been trying to go over there. Okay.

[00:03:21] Jake: It's crazy to me. That the NFT Craze hasn't been that long, but it feels long. Like it's only been maybe a year to just like really gone crazy.

[00:03:32] Brian Laughlin: Yeah. I mean especially on Stacks, Stacks is even earlier then ETH,, you know?

So it's, it's crazy. But it's better when you look at there's a, there's a thing going on I don't know. These historical NFTs. You know, these CryptoPunks are obviously historical, crypto skulls, all these kinds of like really old, same old there's some, 2017, right. If it was like on ETH and then becoming quite popular as they like the OG on ETH apparently, so it's kind of one of the reasons why I wanted to go on Stacks as well, because it's like, you know, anything, [00:04:00] any project. Megapont and all these ones are launching it at a moment right now they are OGs of stacks, no matter what, like in five years we can take a look back and they'll be the first projects there.

So that's why I was super motivated. To try and get Satoshibles a presence on them as early as I could, you know? And, um, I'm hoping it's early enough. It could be one of the OGs, uh, you know,

[00:04:19] Jake: I think you came at the right time. So is that what's going on is kind of saw some CryptoPunk news, like a couple of sold for some crazy amount.

Is there kind of this like resurgence for like that, that the blue chip blue chips are making a resurgence in the, in the community?

[00:04:33] Brian Laughlin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, CryptoPunks is obviously the largest one, but they've kind of messed up a little bit with the corporate and their IP kind of like scandal they had where they say that people don't own the IP.

That caused so many derivatives to happen, which is like, Hey, we're also crypto punks, but we give you the IP then. And then, you know, some of them look blown up. But apart from that, there's just like smart contracts that were minted in 2017 with like some, some pixilated artwork and people are just jumping on those ones.

And then some of the floors are got up to like [00:05:00] 3-4 ETH right now. Uh, just, just because of 2017. And then I'm like asking, well, I was, I minted 2021. So am I going to be like a historic NFT in five years time? You know, like when we, when you look at. Especially when you think about 2021 was the year actually of NFT.

So like any project basically launched in 2021 should be considered pretty historic, you know, in five or 10 years to come, you know, so.

[00:05:25] Jake: Okay. And what's your, what's your pulse on what's driving? Like. I don't have a good read on NFTs. I can't really tell what's moving what's. Is it narrative, is it art? Is it community? Like community seemed like the biggest thing.

What's your pulse on what's driving like the new NFT projects that really pop?

[00:05:46] Brian Laughlin: Yeah, it's a ton of speculation. I mean, there's, there's a ton of speculation at the moment. And, you know, with, with one popular project comes 10 copycat projects who some might do it well, and some may just be a straight up copy and they're just [00:06:00] like a baseline, like a rug pull or whatever.

But I feel like the Bored Ape Yacht Club community is like obviously the most popular one out there. What they've been able to achieve is, is quite amazing actually from the scale of it. And they've been able to pull on, you know, celebrities and massive influencers as well. So from Satoshibles point of view.

It's also, I would say I'm more focused on community building and trying to get you know, build a really strong core, which I think we've been able to do so far. Um, my, you know, my, my community and the Discord is a really kind of faithful and dedicated community that write blog posts and tweeting all the time.

Community is definitely an important factor. Um, so it's hard to say like ton of speculation at the moment. And, uh, right now it's all about utility as well. So, you know, when I launched mine it was like profile photo artwork, I'm going to mint this great. And then that died out and it's like, what's the utility?

What's the point of this NFT? What's it do, which is fair enough. You know? And, we'd also look into Satoshibles to include some utility but I think. [00:07:00] You know, and in the future, utility, is gotta be a massive part of the, the ones that are going to survive based on real world value value of these actually breaking apart from just speculation.

And then you've got maybe a one-on-one artists who are affecting using the platform to sell that art with no utility but their art is amazing. So they will be able to just push that up. So I think that'll kind of die down with the copycats and then you see two paths, 1 of 1 stuff, and this pure utility side of things.

[00:07:24] Jake: Yeah. I think the other thing too, I'm seeing, that's like it's too early to. Big, but it will be big, I think, is communities and DAOs like that. The token is your entrance and then you can guide. Uh, like the direction and the impact of this treasury or this collective action that you can focus on something.

And that, and that feels real because you're not only just a Satoshible holder, which like it's provable, that's yours, but you can also see, like, we put 10% of this towards that. And we got this result. That seems really early. [00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Brian Laughlin: Yeah, definitely. I mean, DAOs have been around for a few years when DeFi obviously was like 2019

um, and, and that they introduced DAOs then kind of, but nobody really, it wasn't really in the mainstream. And it seems like NFTs have just dragged that all these kind of buzzwords of people going, oh, what's a DAO?. And then, you know, now it's like, okay. And if these might be actually the gateway for people to learn more about DAOs rather than some scammy DeFi project that nobody's interested in.

So, NFTs are maybe a bit, gateway for that, especially when you have the community aspect of it, people, people, they want it to be part of something. And DAO is obviously a great way to bring the community and, and get them directly involved and decision-making and things like that. So it's, I . Think that DAOs are super exciting and there'll be the play of lots of part going forward and probably every project.

[00:08:44] Jake: Yeah. Well, you mentioned community earlier and I've read something about built with NFT and built with Bitcoin. And it seems like your, your guys' thesis from the jump was about making, giving a disproportionate amount of your, [00:09:00] what you guys are minted with or whatever to giving back. So talk a little bit about that.

I'm curious.

[00:09:06] Brian Laughlin: Yeah. I mean, there's this sense that I'm getting a thought, why not just try and do something good? And we. We tried to make this idea of look, let's donate as much as we can, basically from the mending ease and let's get, let's put it up to the community to decide what charity is they should donate towards.

Um, so we've got to, we've got to do a first 10 Ethereum donation, and we put it up to the community and say, okay guys, here's the list of the charities from thegivingblock.com, which is a super great website to donate crypto to a list of charities, which are accepted.

the currency there. Um, uh, so we give them a list of charities and the land is on Built with Bitcoin, which is obviously great for us because it's matching the theme and everything, but not, not just that, like, what they're doing is, is really amazing about, um, they're building up communities in rural areas that are south America and Africa.

A classic example, the west, you know, um, [00:10:00] Uh, school, right? So school would you have used a lot of communities in Africa, but the school is like a four or five-hour walk away walking away so that the kid gets up in the morning. Has to walk five hours and five hours back. The parents are terrified because it's like, you know, this.

So they'll let cool, let's just build the school and the community and ends of this. They go out and walk 50 meters to get to the school, whereas, you know, so there'd be building skills there for a few years now. Um, I think they've got skills in Kenya, Rwanda, Nigeria, and south America, El Salvador. They've got over 500 students.

And it was blowing my mind right. So basically with this first 10 Ethereum donation and I wanted to go on the phone but I'm cause it's the most money you've ever donated in my life. So I'm like, you know, this guy, where does this money going? Like Chris was, it was his a scam or whatever. But anyway, tonight were, cause I got on the phone call with the founder, Yusuf. Super nice guy.

He's he, he created the foundation and he told me all these things with the school, everything, what they're doing. And he told me what they can [00:11:00] do with 10 ETH donation and it blew my mind. I think they were able to build this under construction now a whole new science lab with laptops, and they had money left over to build a new, kind of a water filtration thing.

And I'm like, and same with 10 ETH. It's absolutely incredible. Yeah. And during the phone call, he then asked me about Satoshibles and how I made that. Another thing I said, yeah, you know, it's a generative project. You get artwork], you can generate 10,000 images. And then like this light bulb just clicked in my head.

I don't know why, but I'm just like, oh my God, I've got a great idea. And I said, why don't I get like your students to paint for us, I'll Photoshop them. And then we'll make a collection and it donate a hundred percent back through, Built with Bitcoin, and then that's where Built with NFT was born.

They were super hyped about it and that he wanted to launch on giving Tuesday, which was a time two months away. So we're like, oh, okay. We'll try and do it then. And, um, yeah, we basically, they got over 500 students to paint for us.. The scan each [00:12:00] image. I mean, some of these children then even just havent used paints creatively before, so there was a whole thing, you know, like I was totally humbled and like, wow, this is crazy.

So they got over 500 students, this, the Built with Bitcoin team on the ground, scanned each one individually wrote down the child's name, age, and school, and then sent it to me in a Dropbox. I would open each file in Photoshop, like each one manually for like three days without sleeping. And then, and then I wrote the code to the generate 10,000 unique pieces of art based on their, their paintings.

Um, and, uh, yeah, we launched it to once, you know, we got out there, but the launch was not great because we launched the on giving Tuesday and we get completely drone though by, uh, by other other charities launching at the same time. So, uh, but just try, try to keep it going. But we've so far with, we're just, we just raised our first 13 Ethereum, and then that's now been cashed.

We're gonna cash out as we go. The first 13 Ethereum from Built with NFT has just been donated back to the Built with Bitcoin. And then they're going to start [00:13:00] rolling out. Yusuf is currently in Africa right now is he's got a guy that have loads of content. He's doing some interviews with the teachers also, and the students.

And then from that content portfolio, update the website with all that stuff. They show people like ongoing what the, what the funds are doing. So that's probably, um, I basically say to my community, listen, guys, this is now our thing. Like, we've got to be a part of this now as. Getting back, social good. And we're going to need to have also the website.

This will be our kind of a way of giving back as well. So

[00:13:30] Jake: I love it. I love that you can make impact with crypto and like be disproportionate, but also like if you could see it like, uh, Yeah. I, I work at a grocery store. We do some of that too, where we like a fundraise for certain kids to do this certain thing in schools.

And then we can see their group, but if I go visit them, you can. It's. It's amazing. How, how big is your team though? I know you guys full time on it. Okay.

I am. I'm the only full-time member at the moment. I was lucky enough, lucky enough. I was, I was [00:14:00] scared to appeal the, uh, quit my job last year to go fulltime on Satoshibles. Which was a risky move, but like, you know, I want to try and make this the best that can be.

And then my other team members are basically, they are kind of part time and, you know, but they're super dedicated. Um, uh, just took a couple of devs. So I've got a couple of guy running Discord, Marketing person and they're just getting paid kind of like on a project by project basis right now. And hopefully if it was at this something massive, we can, we can bring them on full-time.


Okay. And that part felt like a left turn question slightly. But the reason I ask is because the fact that you're doing this charity point from the jump, it, it does hinder you from being able to bring people along quicker at some point. So like growing the project or growing the artwork might be hindered in the short-term, but the long-term benefit of being mission-driven and giving back, if people are aligned on that actually pays dividends longer term.

So it's like it's taking the. The path of more resistance because it's the right [00:15:00] thing to do, which is why I just want to double click on that. Cause its powerful.

[00:15:04] Brian Laughlin: Thanks, man. Yeah. and this, like you say about the foundation and then just keep pushing it and try and get other people on board as well. So,

[00:15:12] Jake: Love it props to you guys.

Okay. Well, let's, let's start to switch over to Stacks Bridge, but I am, because I know, I know nothing about Ethereum. I've used it once where I tried to, I was going to mint a monster. This is the funny thing for people listening. I tried to mint a monster because, uh, they're having a mint right now for Satohibles Monsters

and I was like, okay, cool. I'm gonna, I'm going, doing these support. These guys he'll come on the pod. That'd be great. And then in my DMS, I got a, I got a scam account and I clicked it and I got hacked for 0.1, ether, whatever. So $300 learn my lesson quickly, but that's what I want to experience on E I haven't used it besides that.

How is it on ETH like as an NFT project? I've heard it, I've heard it's a saturated and competitive, but you also have massive liquidity and. I've talked to some products who come to Stacks and they [00:16:00] love it. But I can't tell if there's a selection bias because they're doing so well being in a big fish, in a small pond.

W what's your pulse on ETH right now as a, as an NFT collection?

[00:16:11] Brian Laughlin: Yeah, like you said, it's super saturated. Um, it's hard to, when I started Satoshibles I was like, I had no following. I'm not like a famous person or anything. I had literally 20 followers on Twitter. Um, and I started Satoshibles followers on Twitter, you know, so brand new.

So is there an uphill struggle? And then, but even now it's pretty much impossible. Like, if you want to do a mint no one, if you need to have someone backing you, you need help. You need to have a following. Otherwise you're going to drown. It's really, really difficult. Um, and it's kind of like hard to figure out what ones are legitimate and not.

There's so many copies and so many scams out there as well. So it's a, it's a, it's a minefield at the moment. Um, but like you said, that's where all the liquidity is right now., That's where everything's happening. But with Stacks you know, it's a different [00:17:00] situation. It's a completely different environment as well.

The community's much more intertwined with each other. Everyone gets on well, um, it's obviously a very early or you've got a chance to get to, to make, uh, make a splash and, and, you know. Have a voice as well, I often can you go and talk directly to the core team and you can do that in the Discord right now.

You know, you can't do that with Ethereum basically. So, um, that's also like privilege as well to be so early that we can do that. But Ethereum where they sat right now, and I think that, uh, Um, by, by me bridging over to Stacks, hopefully I can be like maybe a kind of a guideline to say, look, you know, it's working, we've done it.

We've opened the doors now and then we can maybe get similar projects, my size, you know, We're not gonna land Bored Ape Yacht CLub at the beginning, but you know, if we can get maybe a couple of what projects my size, over the bridge to see the potential of Stacks thats, that's the whole point of it really.

[00:17:52] Jake: Beautiful. I love that. And the bridge. So let's double click on the bridge. What, I guess I want to start with the technical [00:18:00] side. How, how hard was it to go from Solidity to Clarity? What kind of pitfalls did you run into? How was your experience trying to build it technically?

[00:18:11] Brian Laughlin: Well, when we decided to go the Stacks, obviously, we needed a Clarity developer, um, We got PseudoZach involved in that you can always really, really well known in the space, with his LNSwap and he's doing loads of other things.

So it really happy to get Zach involved with that. And then it's just a matter of, okay, let's, let's brainstorm this. Had a call with Marvin. There's different people in the space to try and brainstorm a little bit how to do this. And it became very apartment. The trustless way right now, it's just, that takes a ton of R and D to try and figure this out.

Cause it's not an easy thing. Um, you know, locking up an NFT on one chain, unlocking on another. It's just like to do to completely trustless is something that's quite to take either much more advancements in interoperability between the chains or some, some other kind of mechanism, which is a little bit more decentralized.

My [00:19:00] thought was okay. I don't want to wait five years before I get on Stacks. So how do I do that? No, you know, and I say, look, why don't we do it in simpler kind of stages? And then look, stage one will be, will be based that trusted service by our team, by the Satoshibles team. And that's like be open with it.

"If you want to use the Bridge, Then you need to trust us," basically, you know, we'll use all the security practices. We can build belt at this thing, obviously good as possible audited, but it's not decentralized. It's not completely trustless and that's basically what we did. So we want to go on Stacks.

So we launched version one as a, as a, basically like a trusted service, which is, you know, um, has this smart contract and has a Satoshibles contract on, on ETH, has the Clarity contract on Stacks. And then there's a bridge service running in the middle basically which is kind of a listening to the transactions and controlling that happening.

So we are kind of always right now looking to get to that version two. Right now, and maybe taking on some funding as well, to try and get some real developer brains behind this problem and get, get into like an open [00:20:00] protocol, because that's when you can start bringing in other people, when it's, when it's more trustless, then you can start showing other projects to say, okay, cool.

You just need to use this protocol. And then it's really easy to kind of set up. So yeah, that's the journey we're on right now.

[00:20:12] Jake: Okay.

And just for my own cause I'm, I'm new ish to crypto. I've probably been here, frankly, this takes months like heavy when you're saying trustless versus trusted. Trustless would be completely code driven, no intermediary.

And it can just click and ends up over here and trusted as there's some human in the middle that has to initiate some part of the process. Is that a way of thinking about it?

[00:20:35] Brian Laughlin: Yeah. So, you know, have you used PseudoZach's LNSwap before. . So that's, uh, that's the trustless protocol. So basically it's all on chain, so there's no human element involved in it and it's all on chain.

So you know that it's going to just work fine. Opensea for example was one, Uniswap on ETH. It's also trustless completely trustless protocol. There's no centralized server involved in those transactions. It's all on chain. [00:21:00] Um, so that's the goal. That's the ultimate goal was to basically make that happen, but it, it becomes.

Trustless trustless apps. I trust the services that really kind of ease it. When it's on the same chain. So you could build a trustless app on stacks directly, if it's just like you wanna build something like an NFT exchanger where like I put my NFT in,, and then you put yours on and then it swaps.

Then you can exchange it. That's totally doable on the same chain. But on a different chains. I mean, different blockchains, completely. Ethereum and stacks is completely different. It's it's not possible at the moment. You can't can't make them talk to each other. So you have to have this thing in the middle, at the moment right now to communicate between the both.


[00:21:39] Jake: And this might be getting too in the weeds, but what is the big hangup when it comes to what is missing R and D wise, but maybe, maybe with this podcast, someone's going to hear the problem and they start working on it. What is the biggest issue that has to be R and D when it comes to making them talk?

[00:21:57] Brian Laughlin: Yes. This is a term called interoperability . So [00:22:00] basically allowing chains to be like an allowing one chain to know what the other chain is doing. Is that ultimate dream? And, uh, the only way that kind of works is that you can, you need to have so Stacks needs to know whats currently happening on Ethereum. So if you do transactional Ethereum, theoretically, you could, you could somehow get the block there, feeding and block, enter the stack and to stack somehow and then stacks in then no space that was happening on Ethereum..

That's the only way that can happen. And there's no way. Asking Ethereum or anything like that, you have to give Stacks the information. And again, I'm not like fully a or why this is that's my limited knowledge on, on the thing. Um, if anyone listening does know anything about that stuff, then please reach out because that would be like amazing for us.

Um, but it's, it's, it's quite hard problem to solve right now. Um, but I'm sure Stacks team in it also working in that, because that is the ultimate goal as well. Cause that would be their dream to also suck in a lot of liquidity from ETH as interoperable as possible, their already walking on being able to change a [00:23:00] Solidity contract into a Clarity contract.

You can do that already. Like you can just easily quite like, convert into Clarity um, which is a great thing for onboarding Ethereum people. Cause then it's just like, oh, I've already got a smart contract on Solidity. I can just convert it to Clarity and launch it. And then I've got one there. Not that the communicate, but at least they'll be able to launch it.

Um, yeah, let's see how it goes, but it's, it's super exciting. If you could, like one day just call a function, call a function on a smart contract on ETH and that gets picked up on Stacks. So that's the ultimate goal.

[00:23:29] Jake: Yeah, it does seem like bridges are starting to become the thing. Cause I know you guys are first, but Megapont working on their banana bridge and then Albridge has got a pretty big grant to bring interoperability to Stacks over ten or so blockchains.

So yeah, pretty, pretty exciting stuff. Um, very interesting. Very interesting. And you guys that the goal is going to be to make it somewhere open source. So it's, it's not going to be. Initially it's verified [00:24:00] projects or people that come to you initially, but th but the dream is that anybody who wants to use this, just port it in your assets and bring them over.

[00:24:08] Brian Laughlin: Yeah, I think that's the dream, but the, more than what I've talked to people about it, I'm not sure if it's, if it's even possible to do without some sort of a set up process. Um, when you could you make a call maybe, but there will be some sort of, uh, you'll meet yourself, a smart contract on, on clarity, right?

I mean, there has to be someone doing that because the NFTs have to live there. So there will be a setup process and whether or not it comes from a service that we provide, or we just give the guidelines for people to like use a step by step here's how you get going with the protocol. Okay. We're not sure.


[00:24:39] Jake: Got it. Okay. Uh, man, this has been super interesting. I want to start to close this down, but what, I probably have a ton of going on between the bridge, the monsters, more art coming down. What do you guys have coming to the pipeline? I mean, you could pick between six months to a year. What are you, what are you guys.[00:25:00]

[00:25:01] Brian Laughlin: I have not really announced it yet, so I can't really see anything, but we are walking on the whole point of us going to Stacks for me was, was to, two fold basically to, to go from my whole daughters, um, a choice of going to blockchain, which is backed up by Bitcoin. You know? So for security purposes, people would hold for the long, send it there and then just, you know, you're, you're, you're golden because it's backed that with Bitcoin, but also to build utility because building, utility on Ethereum.

it was super expensive with the gas fees. And the transaction fees over in Stacks and obviously miniscule and insist. It's a much better place to start building this stuff. So we all can see us. We are building something right now that will be launched very soon. That's all I can say.

[00:25:39] Jake: Okay. Big question mark, But you heard it here first,

[00:25:42] Brian Laughlin: but we want to stacks anyway.

So we plan to build stuff. They have a plan to, you know, get, get involved with the community as much as we can, you know, and, uh, try and be a good member of the, of the community.

[00:25:53] Jake: Love it. We are happy to have you guys we're a hundred percent. Well, any, any closing thoughts before it close it down?

Something that [00:26:00] we didn't discuss or you want to tell to the community?

[00:26:03] Brian Laughlin: Uh, no, just really happy to be on Stacks. Finally, you know, we've been talking about it for a few months now, and then we finally launched that and it was so good to see that first basically the first Satoshible will get bridged all and then you see it pop up on the marketplace and, um, a small, not just in a marketplaces as well.

You know, the, the Byzantion guys, STXNFT StacksArt all those guys. They're like what we're doing. I know it'd be a thousand times more difficult if they guys didn't help us, you know, like they, they were, they've been so open to the community. It's those marketplaces that are really driving the NFT scene forward, like it'd be possible.

So big shout out to them for all the help they gave us, like what the transaction. No, it also could help with. Okay. And as there, and, and, and lessening our stuff and everything. So, yeah, that's all my specific.

[00:26:47] Jake: Yeah, shout out to all of them. I know every time I talked to someone who's working on an NFT collection, they've already talked to multiple guys and gotten a bunch of help.

And I'm like, these dudes must have clones. Like how they do it. Everyone I talked to is, has, has a [00:27:00] positive view of either Obsidian or Plutus or Jamil all of them. So it's just a great tax that they're killing it. Well, Brian, this has been fantastic. Thank you for coming on, man. I like what you guys are building.

Thanks for having me,

James, because too.