Welcome to Built on Bitcoin - Your home for innovation happening in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Sept. 23, 2022

E92: Learning from the Best NFT Artists with Caleb (Phosphorus) - Host of The Airdrop Show

Caleb (Phosphorus online) is the Host of The Airdrop Show. Airdorp is an NFT show for the everyday person. New tech can be complicated, Caleb and team bring on creators of all types to talk about how they are using NFTs, and the new tools Web3 brings to create better art, connect with their audiences, and thrive as a creator.

Follow Caleb on Twitter: @phosforusbtc
Learn more about Airdrop:
Join their Discord, It's popping.


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Caleb (Phosphorus online) is the Host of The Airdrop Show. Airdorp is an NFT show for the everyday person. New tech can be complicated, Caleb and team bring on creators of all types to talk about how they are using NFTs, and the new tools Web3 brings to create better art, connect with their audiences, and thrive as a creator.

Follow Caleb on Twitter: @phosforusbtc
Learn more about Airdrop:
Join their Discord, It's popping.


Get the TL:DR on innovation happening in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Big thank you to our sponsor, The Stacks Foundation.
If you want to get started building on Stacks and push the mission forward of a user-owned internet with Bitcoin as the base layer. Check the links below.

Learn Clarity:  https://start.stacks.org/
Learn more about Stacks: https://stacks.co/
Apply for a grant: https://stacks.org/grants


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[00:00:02] spk_0: what is up? Beautiful people welcome back to the built on Bitcoin podcast will recover all the innovation happening across the Bitcoin ecosystem. I am your humble host, Jacob Brown, which will see me on my space and the interwebs as jake Blockchain and today I have a car conversation with Caleb which you may have seen around as phosphorus on twitter. He is one of the minds behind another podcast called Airdrop. It's a show all about N. F. T. S and they're kind of at the intersection of art creators and web three and I've got him on because there's a ton to talk about in the space. I mean N. F. T. S and crypto are rethinking the tools that creators have to sustain themselves and interact with their audiences. So we cover a ton of topics around that digital scarcity. What is an N. F. T. He gave a great definition where he thinks they're going some of the nuances and things that he's learned over the year and how and if keys have already kind of evolved as far as narratives go over the year. So fascinating conversation. I love this is also good to hear some of his background before crypto what he was into. So yeah, this is this is a good one, I think you'll enjoy it. And so before we jump in though and we just pause for a quick word from our sponsor. We

[00:01:33] spk_1: all know Bitcoin is for the innovators, the revolutionaries and the builders looking to build a better world for themselves and for the next generation. We also know the saying the best time to

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[00:02:38] spk_0: All right. And without further ado, let's just jump right into this fantastic conversation with Caleb A k a phosphorus host of the Airdrop show podcast. Welcome to build on Bitcoin Caleb. How you doing there, my man, what's

[00:03:09] spk_1: up sir? It's a beautiful day outside and I can't complain.

[00:03:12] spk_0: I love it. You're one of my content creators and crimes. So this is a different kind of episode, This is gonna be fun. Um, yeah, I

[00:03:23] spk_1: feel like I've made it, I feel like I've made it now if I'm on the jake Blockchain show.

[00:03:27] spk_0: So this is,

[00:03:28] spk_1: this is a step up graduated varsity leagues now

[00:03:33] spk_0: you've reached the critical, it's only downhill from here. I apologize

[00:03:38] spk_1: down. Crypto teaches us.

[00:03:40] spk_0: That's right, that's right. Yeah. This this will be, this is gonna be fun to dance around a little bit and we're gonna talk a lot about N. F. T. S because that's kind of been you guys hobby horse. And it's especially because this is more of a Bitcoin focus show now a lot of big corners don't understand FTS. They're they're pretty dumb to the idea. So we have to, we have to educate the masses on where these uh non fungible tokens are going and why they're valuable, but before we get there I wanna I want a little bit more about you and your background. So before you got into crypto, what what's your background, what's what's a little bit about Caleb?

[00:04:20] spk_1: Um Well we can just back back back it up like um you know, you graduate high school 2007 and. No no. Yeah. Yeah and so you have the financial crash of 2008. I didn't understand what was happening until I was in college and I graduated college and the market hadn't even hadn't come back yet and you've been built up with these dreams that if you can do what you want to go to school, work really hard and the american dream is there for you and it wasn't and it's just like wait a minute. I've been lied to my whole life. So I did what every college graduate does when they don't know what they're doing. I went back to school um I got my Masters in Public Administration and Urban planning and I love that. But the problem with urban planning is um it takes 100 years to see if your ideas work. And I didn't have the patience to wait 100 years and fight the uphill battle to make this happen. Um So I turned into content. I started I was a lot of stuff I was doing for nonprofits and um in my government job there was just a lack of marketing, its which is just educating the people on on what's going on in a clear and concise way. So I just moved into making content. That's when you had, I mean of course we rose up with social media getting older. Um And so I just you just I was watching Casey Neistat and I picked up the camera and said if he can do it, I can do it, which is the dumbest idea ever. But I've been on this road ever since and it's led to some crazy things um making full on documentaries to working at startups, building out video courses. Um Just getting my brain stuck into the marketing loop of how we consume things, how we learn about things and that kind of leads me into into the crypto sphere. And how, because when I saw N. F. T. S drop, right? Because I was a big Gary V fan, right? As you're looking at marketing creating content, how you consume it. Gary V is the guy, right? Tom Bilyeu is the guy. And so when all of my like mentor figures that I'm looking up to are talking about this latest thing, I went holy crap, this is like when facebook first got started because I was there and I watched it happen and how they grew uh this is how the internet started because I was there when we all got our first computers and we have dial up internet and like this is so weird, what are we doing this now? I literally can't do anything without the internet. And so now when you see this next wave and what's building, what's being built on top of it, it just made complete sense for me to go all in on N. F. T. S. And whatever is happening in this space here. But I think I think I jumped the gun there on the next question, but it's that it's that line of thinking of like what can we do now because the wave is happening and how do we catch it? Whether that's making making content for social media right now, being a content creator is the number one job that high school students want to do when they graduate. When you ask kids what they want to do, they want to be a Youtuber, They want to be a Tiktok, er it's this, there's something happening and some change happening and I just want to be in the middle of it. That's why I'm here.

[00:07:46] spk_0: Okay, so your main, your main push was, this is where the puck is going to go. I don't know how long it's gonna take, but when it's ready, I'm gonna wayne Gretzky that ish and catch it and be prime. Was that kind of idea? So you're preparing your future self for that and also being, you could be a leader whenever that hits,

[00:08:05] spk_1: Right? I also, I feel like I'm behind all the time. That's just the perpetual state of things because you watch people like they're so much better. Well, they started 10 years earlier, you just gotta start now, shoot your shot. You can't score unless you put yourself in a position to, so how can I position myself in a way to take a risk and have that risk. Pay off

[00:08:30] spk_0: interesting before we go too deep. Done more crypto stuff. I'm curious of the urban planning thing because you hear like city coins had an interesting promise on the jump. They're kind of figuring out their footing now. Uh you have like city Tao, which is trying to like fundraise, you know, buying a big plot of land doing everything by like grassroots bringing plumbers electricians or whatever. You have apologies, like new network state book where he's trying to go from like the cloud and then you come down to physical reality. Are you watching any of that of like, you know, being able to organize a new ways and then put roots down physically in some fashion? And maybe um the reason I'm asking is because you said 100 years these 100 year times and everything just takes way too damn long. And it seems like we can shorten that now tools like crypto. But I'm curious about your take on that.

[00:09:25] spk_1: I think it's the idea of and I think crypto does this well, and there's some flaws to it just because of the nature of the game, it's easy to I. D. A. Theorize put an idea out there, we're going to re centralize like we're going to reorganize ourselves in this new economic way and they you it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't um there is no like fix for a lot of this stuff um and and human nature and human nature does, and you got to really follow the money and you can see someone that now coming back into downtown systems, um certain certain urban areas, but it just takes a long time. Like as you saw with the adoption of Bitcoin were still there. It takes a long time for these narratives to really sink in. So people go, oh this is actually good for me. Um because people don't think like that in the long run and it takes a long time to get those adoption of those things even started. Couldn't happen. Yes. Coulda dow replace a um school board probably. Right. But you're gonna have to fight those old systems that are dug in that you know, we use the whole political movements have been started over patronage systems right? Where people getting jobs because of their grandparents or who they know you gotta um that takes a long time to to weed out and people don't want to get rid of those things easily. So could it work better in theory? Yes it could will it you know that's a big battle, you have to fight and that's why I want to stay out of those arguments as much as possible because if they are circular and they're gonna go forever and it's just two people yelling at each other saying how right they are or not. And I just kind of like just back out of the room slowly. I don't need to be in this room, which is why I left the public space to begin with.

[00:11:21] spk_0: Right. Right, right. Yeah. And I'm always like a techno optimist now, it's like we're two years away from like amazon delivering my milk to my fridge directly in my fridge. Like it's coming. It's like you know we have all the tech the R. F. I. D. S. And or whatever but that the actual like boots on the ground stuff takes way longer than you

[00:11:40] spk_1: expect. Right? I remember reading when like Andrew yang's book we're on normal people pretty much exactly says like uh what Cryptocurrency like exchange would look like for for services like a dow you would or like a city coin. He like outlined it perfectly. I didn't know what that, I didn't know city coin was doing any of this at the time but like those technical optimists are thinking in these ways and 100% could happen. There's just a lot of things that have to happen first to really get that adoption to move forward and actually people see it as a benefit instead of them being pessimistic because trying new things is difficult, difficult.

[00:12:20] spk_0: Right? Do you think last question is um you know remote work at zoom has like changed so fast in the past two years that I worked through my computer now. Do you think the nature of studies and how like much of a gravitational pull they have is going to change in any big way?

[00:12:42] spk_1: I do think so yeah we're even seeing part of it now and I think Web three is actually at the forefront of a lot of this because a lot of Web three is remote jobs only. Um Because you can pull in more talent for more places. You don't have to you can be in Kansas and Missouri and work in a company in new york. Um And also the price of living is different in those places. And so I do think some smaller cities are going to see a boom again. Um if they can attract the right tech hubs but that means they have to build a certain way because these workers are gonna want certain things, they're gonna want walkable neighborhoods, they're gonna want better restaurants, they're gonna want different things and Kansas city put all the pieces in play to attract those people. Yes they can. That's gonna be a lot of work and that's not a it's not an overnight switch. Um Austin texas is a great example of somebody that's done that 20 year switch to become a tech hub so you can have some of these cities and I do think more people are gonna spread it out. But if you to get your experience going to a big city is probably the best move when you're just starting out and it will always have that because there's the bigger network of effect, more people, more people, more jobs. Different types of jobs. Um It's gonna be harder to find. The it's currently hard to find me the jobs I want to do in smaller cities because that's the firms are in larger cities. Is it possible? Yes. And I think Web three is at that bleeding edge and it's gonna lean more towards that but I still we probably still have a 20 year time horizon before. It's really pretty

[00:14:25] spk_0: Interesting. Okay. Yeah I thought about like that because like the I think the status like 70% of people don't leave their home state which I hear that and you go Okay that's kind of crazy. But also feels pretty true. And then the people who do leave because their dramatic or because they have access to capital, they can keep moving. Like they don't they're not stuck anywhere. And so if they if they, you know some places like that they say is super cool, they can go try it but it doesn't work out to them, they can go to the next place. So it's like the benefit of voting with your feet in some sense it's like it has pros and cons on that same side because I can just go to the next hot hot space of a lot too.

[00:15:05] spk_1: Right? Yeah. Try to work your connections and work your way up.

[00:15:09] spk_0: Yeah interesting. Okay. Very cool. Um Yeah let's let's jump into N. F. T. S. Now my man, this is a big topic that wants to talk about. Um But for the big corners out there that don't know what the hell the FT is they want to be, you know stuck in the sand and you've been asking this question over and over all year. So now put on the spot in your definition, what what is an N. F. T.

[00:15:35] spk_1: Uh An N. F. T. Is just proof that you own a digital asset. Um And I think Bitcoin is actually do understand this better than they think because what Bitcoin did for money, N. F. T. Does for N. F. T. S. Do for everything else. Because Bitcoin got bigger under the premise that the way that we use money now in a centralized bank system um Is not beneficial to the holder, it's beneficial to the system and the institutions that are running it right. They have to think in a much bigger schemes here. So with Bitcoin there's only 21 million that will ever be made. You have that scarcity built in already. And so it's it's a better financial system in the long run for you to be a part of if you get an early. Um And Bitcoin has done a very good job of establishing the narrative that it is sound money. Now what N. F. T. S do is they take this exact same concept. What Bitcoin did for money? They're doing it for everything else. So there's gonna be scarce assets that are either digital or physical and then we'll have a digital marker and N. F. T. S. Are a way to say I own that just like I own the Bitcoin that I have, it's the exact same concept but what Bitcoin did for money, N. F. T. S. Will unlock for lots of other things And it started really with art art is the the big way that it did this like moved in this way because when we look at stores of wealth like you can hoard gold lots of it. But buying an expensive painting is another way to store your gold in a different way. So N. F. T. S have done for art is another way to store your Bitcoin or your ethereum or whatever Cryptocurrency you have but you're putting it in a asset that could possibly go up with time depending on the artist, whether you want to buy an X. Copy or you want to buy one of fried's pieces. You have these art pieces that do work as a store of value in a different type of way. So what we're seeing now is almost like a new renaissance of artists that are using this technology and moving the space forward in this way of the acceptance of selling art digitally, which kind of goes to my background of like being in that creator economy, seeing how much money is being made for creators. And FTS allow creators to have another avenue to make money. It's just another medium for them to do things. They could of course get commissions to do certain projects, you can they can get paid advertisements or they can sell their work directly which is something that really has never been done before. Especially with digital artists. Digital artists are in this weird in between but where do they fit in the world now with N. F. T. S. They are clearly in the digital space which means they can use and use their art and sell it also in a digital medium so that you could of course right click save. I. I own this or you could have N. F. T. That is a marker is a receipt that says this is actually mine and I can trade it. And so you've you've now inserted the scarcity into digital assets. Digital assets just like Bitcoin introduced scarcity into the financial realms.

[00:19:14] spk_0: Perfect. So N. F. T. S. R. Digital property rights native to the internet is kind of how to think about

[00:19:20] spk_1: it. Yeah that's the easiest way to think about

[00:19:23] spk_0: it and that's not going to eat. Yeah

[00:19:27] spk_1: that could be anything.

[00:19:29] spk_0: Yeah. So the N. F. T. Is the binding that is the proof of ownership. But what that points to could be whatever you can digitally point to a picture of video, audio, you know, a single sign on to an app. That could be whatever

[00:19:46] spk_1: it could be whatever it could it could be your digital identification. It could be anything. Yeah it's and I do think the term N. F. T. Will go away eventually. It would just it would just be I own this. It's mine every every every two year old it's a human interesting. They want to know what's theirs and what's not theirs. This is just that for the internet

[00:20:11] spk_0: right? Yeah I I agree with you I think as as meta versus has chains so as meta versus proliferate whatever that means and chains consolidate into a main like few main ones that we use that's going to feel more and more real where you know I'll use I mean probably gone is questioning on a few fronts because they're getting huge brands to come online Disney Starbucks so whatever the polygon like wallet infrastructure looks like that's gonna become more and more real because you're gonna go to Starbucks and use your you know rewards points and it'll be maybe a wallet infrastructure?

[00:20:51] spk_1: I mean so okay my the town I grew up in is kind of it's famous for being the testing ground for a lot of things. So like we got the uh um nacho cheese Dorito tacos at Taco Bell first before everybody else goes right we're testing ground nationally. One of the things that were also tested for was debit cards and credit cards when they first came out as people moved away from cash into just swiping right swiping became the thing. So now and of course it took a long time for that to be accepted. Was it cool. Was it not cool. How do I feel about this now? I just use my phone for everything. I have Apple pay on there and I just boop scan it the exact same thing is gonna happen with N. F. T. S. We're not gonna think about it's gonna be on the Blockchain or not. It's just gonna be it is in fact I'm gonna want it to be later on because I know it's more secure than than having a credit card or anything else like that. So we're already there it's it's literally just two adjacent steps to this being adopted globally nationally. Um Rather easily. And Starbucks is gonna be the one to do it because everyone gets coffee and is obsessed. So it's an easy easy one for them to use.

[00:22:12] spk_0: Yeah so so when lightning comes to your town it's on it's game

[00:22:17] spk_1: time right? It's like done bingo. Perfect. My only issue with that though is I'm here for it but that's and this is where I when I listen to your podcast I think about how Bitcoin is. Think about this. Do I want to spend my Bitcoin? Is it going to be the question if it's is it a store of value? Am I storing up like gold in a treasure chest that I can pass down one day or is it a asset I want to use back and forth? Um like money and that's a question I I still wrestle with I spend my other crypto I don't spend my Bitcoin

[00:22:56] spk_0: right? Yeah I think my gut says as the wallets get better it's gonna be easy to swap from Btc to a stable coin and within your same app you're going to have, you know my hot Btc that I just kind of like tinker with but what I'm gonna, I have my spending wallet that's like, you know us dc, it's kind of 1000 bucks on it and I just, it's gonna be easier to stay in crypto land with enough supporters have it to go from us dc two Btc than to have to find my debit card because I forgot it at home, whatever it is

[00:23:31] spk_1: like carrying

[00:23:32] spk_0: a wall. It's actually kind of weird like why isn't my license and most of my stuff on my Apple pay so I can just through the house with my phone, I think we're gonna go towards that route, The wallet's gonna die for the most part. Um But I think the big, the big what if right now and I thought about this with like the coin based card kind of a cool invention, like you know, I can swipe it at any restaurant or whatever it uses my Btc. The problem is that that's a taxable event. So the tax part is the thing that people don't think enough about and if I'm buying coffee, I don't want to have to go to my tax accountant and and like divvy up all the times I went to Starbucks because that's gonna get really messy really fast. I think that one has to be solved for it to be like really hit critical mass because I felt this was like go back to the creator economy like doordash or Uber, Nobody accounts for like I got to withhold my taxes because I'm a contractor, they always get hit at tax time and like what do you mean I gotta pay $800, I'm not gonna get a refund. It's like, yeah because you made, you know 12 grand but you want my holding, I think we have to educate the masses on that stuff first. Um until tools come online and people understand it. It's gonna be a big lift.

[00:24:51] spk_1: I also like when during my travels you go to you're the countries that are not quite as developed or as we, as us westerners get there, we don't feel like they're developed. Um And they're they're gonna skip all of that, they're just gonna straight skip it just like they escaped phone lines right there, there are no phone lines in the air because they script they jumped and went straight to straight to wifi um That and you're seeing that already around the globe, in with like Bitcoin Beach and El Salvador and certain of each other's places that are using these transactions and they're going to really, I think that's that's the place where innovation is going to happen when it comes to payments back and forth and you're already seeing

[00:25:37] spk_0: it, it's

[00:25:38] spk_1: gonna, it's gonna be going back to the city conversation if something's entrenched, it's very hard to undo

[00:25:44] spk_0: that it's

[00:25:46] spk_1: much easier just to start where there's nothing. Uh and that's that's you're seeing that right now.

[00:25:53] spk_0: Yeah. Yeah like right now I'm reading the book by charity, water founder scott Harrison. Super interesting. Like his background of like being a nightclub promoter, like one of the top in the city of new york to then uh you know feeling empty going doing this mercy ships thing and then rethinking how we fund raise for charity through Party, not using fear and guilt in some sense of shame but like make it fun, make it a party. But also tangibly show like if you spend $20 on lightning, you're doing this much good directly To someone in, you know Monrovia or Libya, that kind of thing. That's a huge block where it's like the tax stuff is like I'll eat that cost if I can see boom you know my $20 goes so much further than if I give you know $3 to the guy sitting on the on the side of the road. Like it's goes way further. I can feel that.

[00:26:49] spk_1: Yeah 100%

[00:26:51] spk_0: um interesting. Okay I wanna, I wanna touch on a couple of N. F. T. Kind of like how do I wear this, like they've been evolving as far as the culture. So one was the world t debate that happened recently and that almost like up until it seems like a few months ago, getting the long term MTs seemed like the Holy Grail where I can create it once get my mint price and then you know, I can just like how Christy's painting myself for you know millions of dollars but then you're not gonna get the tail end of that and if these were like wow I can get 1% forever And you know maybe I just sell 1000 pieces and I just go off and chill and I can go be free. Where is that settled? I have not been watching it super closely.

[00:27:37] spk_1: Yeah. Okay so when I first got into N. F. T. S, that was like the main one of the main like selling points so like you could get the royalties forever on this. So in 10 years when you've blown up, you know, you may have sold it originally for $100 but 10 years down the line you're gonna sell for $100 million you know that it's gonna be huge and it's in the smart contract. The smart contract is why that happens. I hate and that's what I've seen over and over again, I said that I've seen other creators much bigger than you and I say that that's actually false, that's not in the smart contract, the smart contract is pointing to an asset um that's done by the marketplaces. So the marketplace is set this up saying and that's been their marketing tactic to get people in the door to you, our new artists like, hey, we'll give you this royalty fee. Anybody could technically do that with the, that's just the website and the right coating and knowing where things go, Christie's could do that if they wanted to. Um, that's the, that's the argument. So there is no, so artists love the royalties. I want to, I believe in the royalties. Therefore I need to use the systems that, that honor that system. Um, because if you and I trade in FTS back and forth, that's a, that's a trade. Maybe some money went back and forth. But the artist isn't getting royalties on it. There's no actual way to do that. Um, so that's the scary part. I believe in royalties and I like them. So I'm gonna have to do the hard work of only buying and doing things on marketplaces that support the royalties.

[00:29:20] spk_0: Got it. So it ends up being like the kind of age old, like vote with your dollars kind of thing where it's like, you know, if you don't support what coaches doing, don't buy coke kind of thing. Like he's gonna go to the places that support that philosophically,

[00:29:34] spk_1: right? Yeah. It becomes a, an internal moral question you want to do versus, um, this is the way in FTS work, which it was built for a long time during the bull run. This is the way it happened. It unfortunately smart contracts, uh, don't work like that. So which is a big bummer when I found out because I had been I tell I told everybody told my mom told my grandma they're like this is awesome but this is what happened and know that I got I got full and that's not actually how it works. I

[00:30:07] spk_0: did I hear something about you could whitelist marketplaces in the smart contract so you could like set a whitelist and blacklist so they can only be listed on that website and that would potentially keep it more fair. But it sounds like the downside to that was the marketplace could change. But then too is that really your asset? Like now you have shackles on things that are supposed to be like yours doing you wish with it. Is that is that

[00:30:36] spk_1: Exactly yeah. That's right. You could you could say only do here but now you're limiting yourself to maybe something better will come up in the future. You've just said I'm not going to be a part of that, you could have gotten 10% and you settle for five. So who knows all how it works. Um I do have say this, it's not a business strategy to for to depend on royalties and that's where a lot of N. F. T. Projects were like they, because right now we haven't figured out recurring revenue yet. Whereas in web to creator economy right? It's subscriptions low subscriptions is the easiest way to make recurring money. This is what now netflix makes money. This is how amazon makes money. It's these recurring things that we don't really see every so often, and that's the best business model. And FTS have not figured that out yet. Um, there are a lot of energy projects have not figured that out yet. And so they were using the royalties as that. So in order to do that, they did some shady stuff. Like you, you go silent for a little bit and then you then you do a big announcement. So the prices go up. So you get some of that money and then you were just doing all this weird stuff, which again feels scam. E and shady, which is of course, the number one thing when people say they're not involved because it feels like a scam, it feels shady. So it's not the best business strategy if you're gonna use royalties as for current revenue. Yes.

[00:32:10] spk_0: Okay. Um there's one more little nuance I want to touch on as far as like narratives and that is um people talk about digital scarcity and so, like back by the Blockchain, that's why they're valuable is because they're scarce. And from my view, I can't tell if that's true or not, I don't follow art at all, really. But it seems like in a physical space and the digital space both are driven overwhelmingly by narratives over all else? Is that, is that true? You think, and if that is true do you think that's always true for art?

[00:32:47] spk_1: Okay. I have uh my parents are cleaning out their house in my old room. We have, I found a Chewbacca mug from the 80s, it's one of 80 made handcrafted. Um It currently sells on ebay for like $80. It has value because there's only 80 of them, it has more value to me because I freaking love Star Wars. So there's that narrative behind it that drives more than anything else. Um And that's where can you for these projects? Can you create enough buzz enough hype enough narrative focus around these things that will drive the value up. I think Gary V is a great example, right? He put out his original characters and then they they weren't gonna stay hand drawn that he did it, he just wanted him to be the first one to do that. So when, you know level eight or whenever those original ones are still going to be worth more than say level eight and level 92, it becomes commonplace. And you see it on a backpack and you pick up a patient panda for your third grade birthday party. Like that's it's gonna be different on how on how it works and how we use that narrative and that's all in how you tell your story how you market. Um And the N. F. T. S. Really allow for those first to prove it's the provenance factor that a lot of people are talking about. I can prove when it was made and how many there are and when I bought it and how important that is. I do think a lot of N. F. T. S even right now are going to be worth nothing in the future, right? Just like in the dot com boom amazon and google made it out and that was about it. Um So those are, we've probably already seen those happen and so now we're now waiting for this next round of projects that are gonna come out in the next 2-5 years that really understand this concept more when it comes to storytelling and narrative and however you want to use this and how you want to draw attention and get people to buy like just like you would get someone to buy a physical toy or a baseball card or Um a 1980s VHS copy of dune

[00:35:21] spk_0: like

[00:35:22] spk_1: that. It's gonna be how do you get people to buy those things? That's gonna be the same thing of how we get people to buy our N. F. T. S.

[00:35:29] spk_0: Right, okay, so the tried and true stuff is still stuff. It's kind of universal. Like you just Web three is just more tools at your disposal.

[00:35:37] spk_1: It's just another tool in your tool belt.

[00:35:40] spk_0: Yeah. Okay cool. Then um I'm curious who who from your, from your view is using these tools that this like what some of the most interesting creators and maybe we could dovetail into business bottles because that's that one that's interested in too.

[00:35:58] spk_1: Yeah I'm also interested in that one trying to wrap my head around it. I think obviously the ones there are like two camps in my mind um there's the artist camp who are the fine artists doing this like they like the X. Copies um who are making things like this and you're still a lot more digital artists go that go that way like Ruben Wuhai craft photographers really experimenting with stuff and they can finally sell their things to a broader audience, right? Somebody in Indonesia now can make an N. F. T. Build this out and sell it to somebody in the U. S. Or europe right? That as a new way they never had before of making money. Um And then you're gonna see on the other half is you're gonna have your community based, right? That's your mega pond, that's your board ape proof is even like that where you have your community based. What do you like rally around and that's the exact same thing as a fraternity or sorority in my mind as being a part of a fraternity in college. Like when I went to the mega pop party I was like this is exactly how it feels, It's the same feeling. I have people that have the shared and common language who are passionate about a thing coming together and celebrating and that's I think that's also key and you're gonna find that that's a human connection that we all want to have. Um I think this is doing really really cool things, it's it's awesome but now they have a bunch of money that can make bigger and better projects to keep doing this. I do think the the storytelling aspect the narrative will be the strongest thing to pull some of these projects through

[00:37:42] spk_0: interesting. So one thing you didn't say in there is utility, do you think that's the third piece? Or where does that fit into the overlay? Er Fire and community?

[00:37:52] spk_1: I think it, yeah so that was a big utility. It was a big buzzword community. This is the big buzzword utility was a big buzzword. Um What does your N. F. T. Do? Uh sometimes it can unlock certain things right that to be the club membership aspect. Um I think stuff that like cyclo is doing it could be very interesting once built out a little bit a little bit more. Um Once you get free access like if adobe had an N. F. T. When they first launched that you got everything for free later on forever that would be a game changer and that would go for a lot of money. Um Is that something businesses can do? I think so I think it's a great way to raise capital up front but that that offers a whole different side show of problems that you now have to deal with that when you're just a startup team you probably don't have time for and you should devote more to building your product first and try to build a community.

[00:38:58] spk_0: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's that utility part is the one that I'm I feel like we're like if was in the first ending the utility aspect of N. F. T. S. Is like they're still in the back warming up because it's

[00:39:12] spk_1: like

[00:39:13] spk_0: there's the idea of programming around a token, whether it's art or something else like a jay Z album.

[00:39:21] spk_1: Like

[00:39:22] spk_0: there's so much you can do with that and that and like in web map quest days. Whereas like I'm still printing it out, I'm still sending a transaction hoping like wait for block times all this stuff like that's just that's printing out, looking for the sine addresses. It's way too cumbersome. The program ability of like holding something and you can float across there, probably see proof do it. The best is what I guess was like don't do it first and the best and they'll lead the way on like you hold you hold the moon bird and you're gonna float across all kinds of things from special discounts to private parties to whatever it is. But that's like there's still so much infrastructure to build for that to be even remotely practical

[00:40:04] spk_1: right? Like you could, it would be so many different things like if you wanted to see if your favorite musician had an N. F. T. Collection that they drop and they select randomly you know random numbers whoever whichever ones are. Well you get backstage passes when we're in your city. You know that's something that could be cool and easy but I don't think of that as necessarily utility but more as community building. Like how am I getting back to my community? Um I think Gary v. And proof didn't really prove is gonna do it right when they have their proof of conference right? Where if you are a proof collective member you get you get to go to the conference for free and that's again that's about community building. Yes you're gonna hear some cool speakers but do we really wanna hang out with speakers and we really just want to go to a bar and just hang out with everybody and pizza and connected network like and I think that's the again it kind of feels like a fraternity again how do I I know the secret handshake to get in the door um To and that's the extra utility I'm getting is my network that has grown through that. And I think that's that's really key. I am interested in seeing storytelling N. F. T. S. To take place like what does it look like to go from. Um Like I say a marvel of N. F. T. S. What is going to build that all the way up. Um Starting with buying maybe a PFP to having characters on the show to doing something else. I think that really interest me and you're gonna we're gonna see a bunch of come come up in the next five years of people who are going to try. Um um

[00:41:56] spk_0: And just just so I'm clear you mean like using common characters that are already kind of in the crypto culture or something else as far as storytelling,

[00:42:06] spk_1: something completely

[00:42:08] spk_0: new.

[00:42:09] spk_1: Um Like people are gonna be able to tell stories that never had access to the technology or the infrastructure of the network to even do so but they're good at telling stories. So the next batman is gonna come out like this, the next Matrix is going to be done this way until it hits, you know a feature movie in the theater. It and the cogs are going to be able to go to that first screening when it first gets released and that's going to be such a cool moment because they've been following this whole way and holding and and seeing how that grows and so how they use that I think will be really interesting. I know there's I think there's a big use case for how we view movies. Um And I know there are a couple of projects thinking about this, making movies releasing passes as N. F. T. S. So you have to go to the website, like you would go to a netflix, you go to the website, you connect it while it it sees that you have it, you can watch the movie and when you're done you can sell it. So there's there's an interesting way of how that moves and how demand generates, how the price moves and shakes. Um Will that work? I have no idea. It may be a very interesting way to do it, viral marketing. Put a billboard up in L. A. saying there's only 100 of these to watch this movie. Go like buy it here be the first one. I think that could be very interesting. Again, you need a bigger studio or something behind it to really put the marketing dollars to make it happen. But I think a lot of the use cases are gonna come up like this that are really gonna change how we think about a lot of this stuff.

[00:43:54] spk_0: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You basically say it like it's gonna continue to democratize and remove the gatekeepers so that stories that would otherwise not be told, they'll be able to find their critical mass and they're gonna resonate so deeply with that. And it's gonna be like crypto first. I'm also, as you were talking and maybe think about like it's crazy how like just in the past two months it feels like a i is here

[00:44:21] spk_1: now in

[00:44:22] spk_0: a huge way when it's been like hyped up for so long. Ellen is talking about, it's going to take over the world, the doomsday whatever. But now it's like a I can be a beautiful tool to expand art. And as you were talking about like, kind of like storytelling in these new ways, I can totally see how you could take a PFP render it and then place it in like, retargeted ads around the web. So if it's like, hey, that's my makeup on that thing or I'm watching, I'm watching a movie and that's my thing in the, in the movie. If I'm watching it on my phone, like it knows I'm watching it locally. You

[00:44:59] spk_1: can, you can, you

[00:45:00] spk_0: can tailor them and the tech is pretty much here that, you know, if you're in VR you're on your phone, uh you know, you get to be like the side character that dies, sorry buddy character, but it will be, you know, your lizard man or doodle or goblin town or whatever, like that would be crazy,

[00:45:19] spk_1: right? Like in the background of the bar scene shot, there's a, there's an arcade thing, right? And if it's going to read your wallet and find the biggest club you're in and put, oh yeah, that's a, that's a mutant ape arcade game, that's a mega pong arcade game in the back just little stuff for you that maybe you don't know, there's kind of a tailor to the experience on the caveat on the caveat of democratizing one of the things that I don't see happening is I think the hardest one is gonna break into is gonna be the music industry because of how we can consume music. I think music will always need to be free through streaming. I think that's just the way it's been seen. I think the Tiktok has done a very good job of allowing Um more people to have a viral moment. And I think there's a lot of Web three cases to help indie artists not Uh use the big machines in order to get their music out there. I think that's where the big stuff isn't is in the in the distribution, not necessarily the selling of music. Um I'm not gonna see, you know, Kendrick Lamar's 10 songs that I own and everybody else does, that kind of takes away the beauty of the art. But I could see by Kendall, Kumar and F. T. And be able to go backstage or be able to get first access to the album when it comes out or do other perks like that, what you were talking about utility. And and so that's where I think about because everyone's talking about music and F. T. S. And I think a lot of very very smart people with a lot of a lot of money or working very hard to make to bridge that gap. And so I'm interested to see what they come up with.

[00:47:06] spk_0: Yeah, I couldn't have been more um okay I want to start to bring this to a close, I wanna riff on on the fantastic show that you guys do for a little bit. So for those that don't know what is what is the Airdrop show that you guys produce put out?

[00:47:23] spk_1: Yeah, Airdrop show is the show where we're talking to N. F. D. Artists about what they do. So if you're interested in the next Jpeg GIF collection and getting the right people early, that's what uh that's what we're doing. It's how to not become somebody else's exit liquidity. I think that's the the show because I can't tell you how many times you be like oh that's cool but I'm not gonna do anything, wait a minute. This is really cool and I missed out on it. Um There's a lot of noise and a lot of things to sort through. Especially looking for artists and helping to create our economy and how they're moving forward. Um And we want to kind of be that leading edge for you. Uh and what we're doing where I got a lot of big plans obviously, but this everything changes in flows. I have a million ideas and how do we execute on it best is always the hard part because I could of course go put something out, but I want to be able to back it up in the long the long term. How do you write the right business model to make this happen? Um We started Airdrop as under the premise that um it's better to document your process than to come out with something fully fledged right away. So we didn't know N. F. T. S. Were when we started we asked every guest as they came on in the first season what is an N. F. T. And that's why we've learned so much. I learn best by talking to people. Just let me talk to the people right up front about what this is. Instead of doing my you know 100 hours of research and just talk to 100 people and that's where uh that's kind of how it started and what we're doing and what we're growing and I'm I'm

[00:49:14] spk_0: more focused

[00:49:16] spk_1: on now is how how mps are moving and shaking and what are the big artists doing and thinking about how they use their stuff and trying to highlight highlight the artists highlight the creators, that's where my heart is in my heart is for the creator. So I want to see them succeed and how we how we use this for the creative economy. There's a lot of other shows to talk about N. F. T. S. And current events and how things are moving and shaking. Um we're not a trading show because I have yet to successfully trade. So I can't tell you anything about how to do that. But I can maybe give you some insight of these are the people that might blow up because there aren't as good one. Well one because it is good too because they're diligent enough to put in the time and three they're not in it for the money there and it just to create. And that means when the money goes away, like we've seen it now with a bear market and when the money comes back in the bull market, they'll still be there because it's not about the money, it's about the aspect of creating and that's uh that's really gets my juices flowing and there's a lot of a lot of interesting cool artists that are out there doing really really cool things.

[00:50:24] spk_0: Yeah. The thing I love about your show is that when you are a creator and you're talking like most, most top tier creators are too busy to really like give you the alpha of how they're doing it, you know like how sausage is made. And so when you listen to a half hour interview and question will come up that the response is like, it's the almost the way he answers sometimes that will trigger you or just like one lower line, it's just like a nugget and we'll use that and just like run with it. So from like the creative creative side that is like it's the most like raw source truth out for you can find as far as like how to use N. F. T. S at the bleeding

[00:51:04] spk_1: edge right? Because we're all thinking I mean this is what I was thinking. You hereby N. F. T. S. You start researching it, you buy your first N. F. T. Which is a gateway drug in and of itself. Just like when you buy your first crypto it's like wait a minute and then you start thinking well how do I do this? What do I bring to the world? How how can I use this? I want to be creative. Right. We had like Tyler Foulston who literally started creating because he was trying to keep his mind occupied during lectures in med school. Like and now is his art career makes the same as his real job. So it's like this is a weird thing. Everybody I believe is creative and I think there's a there's a democratization, a new renaissance of creativity that's coming that I believe everybody should be a part of. So I want to talk to the best and the brightest. So maybe we can start thinking to ourselves how do I do this? What does this look like for me And uh then we should get in touch and talk about it because I'm I'm here to listen to my ideas, flush them out. Maybe poke some holes. Maybe say maybe it's just time to start start creating and see what happens.

[00:52:11] spk_0: Yeah what's a what's a couple of the biggest things you've learned since starting the show?

[00:52:18] spk_1: Oh, um I think there's a listening to a lot of people. It's the same thing over and over again, Right? It's the it's to create every day, even if it sucks, you just have to keep going, put your 10,000 hours. And and also, but the and also on that is that everything kind of meets in the middle with web three. Web three is this kind of nexus where art community, fashion, um technology all kind of mix in this weird space in the middle and right now there's not a lot of us out there, you know, compared to how many people there are, say on the internet and so everyone is here to help each other grow. And I think that's really, really cool. It's like, come there's not a competition yet, It's all camaraderie on how do I help you? Because I wanted to help you not because I want anything out of it. And on the flip side of that, there's a lot of hype almost too much to where you think you might miss out on something or somebody makes it big. And then they want to tell you this is the way you have to do it. And that's kind of that toxic culture that kind of seeps through when you're on top. And then I have to be honest, I think it happens to everybody when they're on top um when you, when you've made it, you think you know what happened and you don't want to say that more luck was involved and it actually is um I think it's something big corners can really think about because when you bought it because you knew early not because you were smarter. Um you just happened, we're here. So I think there's a lot of room to grow in the space. I think it's so early. I think crypto is in the first inning. I think N. F. T. S just showed up to the stadium.

[00:54:04] spk_0: Like

[00:54:06] spk_1: I think that's where we're at. Um And we just some people just got off the bus since some flashy suits and everyone's taking paparazzi pictures because it's awesome but we haven't seen them play out yet. We don't know what they're gonna do. So they could fumble on the on the one yard line and lose the game to accept our sports analogies. But that's uh we don't know what's gonna happen yet. I think it's it's really interesting and in 10 years I think everyone's gonna own n. f.t. And I think it's gonna happen through gaming. It's going to happen through storytelling is gonna happen through music. It's gonna be through entertainment that it's going to happen.

[00:54:45] spk_0: I couldn't agree more. I think that's one of the things that really drives me the craziest about these like proof of work, proof of stake debates or N. F. T. S. Are dumb or whatever it is. It's like we don't we haven't been here long enough in crypto at all to even remotely have any like strong, strong conviction like Bitcoin could go to zero like for real for real still like some crazy stuff could happen. A new who knows, wallet whatever something could happen and it would just knows that because they're like we just don't know and they're just so confident and they are correct. That's especially as a new crypto person I just don't understand.

[00:55:25] spk_1: I'm all for passion. I'm all for confidence. I'm also for the saying I am wrong. If you can say that I am wrong, you are, you're probably more more emotionally intelligent than 98% of other humans out there. Um But no please be passionate and please on the other hand be able to say I was wrong really easily and just like I can say I was wrong when I thought about N. F. T. S about royalties. I thought that was just in the smart contract. I was totally wrong and I told a bunch of people. Um And I had to add it out of the shows post now because I was like that that wasn't quite right. Um That's that's just how the cookie crumbles

[00:56:05] spk_0: right? Okay. I got one more questions before we close this out but before we get to it. Uh Where can people find you? What's the links? Airdrop prosperous. All that good stuff.

[00:56:16] spk_1: Yeah. Yeah easiest ways on twitter um at Airdrop show or at phosphorus btc I'm sure the links will be in the description. Um And yeah, you can find us anywhere you listen to the podcast. Just search Airdrop in FT show or right there. Um Spotify, Apple Youtube um everywhere you listen to podcasts. I think I have one coming out real soon and I'm gonna finish it if we wrap this interview.

[00:56:45] spk_0: Hell yeah. Perfect. Yeah. This dude puts out the whole show like everything they do, they put out website clips. Uh you know, production value is just top tier. So highly recommend Airdrop show. Um But last question I'd like to end on a high note. I like to force people to kind of think outside the box, you know, put the rosy colored glasses on. So in a perfect world uh what is phosphorus or Airdrop show? You can take either one. What does it look like in five years? If you guys just like question execution, everything goes perfectly. What's five years and now look like

[00:57:21] spk_1: Five years 2020 to 2020 seven. Um We're probably in the middle of another barrier market at that point. So we've probably crushed it like in three years and become like a big source and we're we've become a lot of people's first, you know, N. F. T. They found through us as we help on board a bunch of people. Um And then it kind of tanks a little bit and we're all trying to freak out whether we all made the right decision and it happens again. And then we we start coming back to our senses and coming back to our our our morals and our core values. We can just kind of say no no I'm in here for the for the right reason for the creatives and we get a whole new class of new green people that are ready to be on boarded and we give them the best products possible and the best artists and help a whole new class of people enter their crypto space which I think is everybody's goal um is more and more adoption. More people understanding it and realizing how it can benefit their lives. And I mean hopefully throw some rat events like five years. We'd better be able to throw some rat events. That that

[00:58:43] spk_0: is a practical very real answer because I'm thinking of like in Portland we have tons of food trucks, they're all over the place and like in the summertime they are poppin so busy and then in the winter time no one's going outside of Portland because it's cold, it's raining and you see a lot of them will like disappear by next summer because it didn't account for the slowdown. You're baking it in already. We're like we're gonna crush it in 2025 2027. We're gonna live off 2025 2030 we're gonna be the biggest thing since sliced bread and we're gonna throw like beacon style events. But for the future future plebs,

[00:59:21] spk_1: I have to like think about it and be like alright, there are ups and their downs and they all happen to us. Uh where where is this going to be? I mean, I'm too obsessed with the web through space now to stop. Um So I'm gonna be here talking to artists being like how the hell are you doing this? Where did this idea come from? And how can we get more? That's that's that's the conversation that's always gonna be happening forever.

[00:59:49] spk_0: I love it. Cool man. That's I think that's a great way to end it. And I

[00:59:56] spk_1: appreciate you appreciate you have me on the show.

[00:59:59] spk_0: No man. I appreciate you coming on any any closing thoughts before we officially hit the end

[01:00:04] spk_1: button. Yeah. If you're a Bitcoin or listening to this N. F. T. S are not the enemy. They're here to help you. And uh I think and you can do it through stacks. So it's secured on Bitcoin. So we keep our keep our faith true.

[01:00:22] spk_0: Perfect. I'm gonna clip that. I'm gonna put a new hydro and everything. So it's gonna start with that headquarters, their doctorate

[01:00:29] spk_1: in me.

[01:00:30] spk_0: It's perfect

[01:00:32] spk_1: uh

[01:00:33] spk_0: Caleb

[01:00:34] spk_1: and you can get and you can get one of jake's jake over at dot io

[01:00:39] spk_0: that's right. If you're if you want to come on the show, you will be immortalized as a both on Bitcoin ft. You're part of the future. So now you're on that list Caleb, so you should come on the show. Thank you so much, my man.

[01:00:53] spk_1: Peace out dude,

[01:01:00] spk_0: Welcome to build on Bitcoin other things on, but I'll be figure out a way to make it out, make it out.