Welcome to Built on Bitcoin - Your home for innovation happening in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Oct. 7, 2022

E94: Podcasting 2.0 with Oscar Merry - Founder of Fountain Podcast App - Lightning Powered

Podcasting 2.0 is the next evolution of the RSS feed that brings new features for listeners and creators to listen to, enjoy, and get paid for listening to podcasts. Oscar Merry and the team at Fountain are leading the way with a fantastic new podcast app that solves two huge problems for listeners and podcast hosts.

Download Fountain at https://fountain.fm/
Follow Oscar on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MerryOscar

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Podcasting 2.0 is the next evolution of the RSS feed that brings new features for listeners and creators to listen to, enjoy, and get paid for listening to podcasts. Oscar Merry and the team at Fountain are leading the way with a fantastic new podcast app that solves two huge problems for listeners and podcast hosts.

Download Fountain at https://fountain.fm/
Follow Oscar on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MerryOscar

Big thank you to our sponsor, The Stacks Foundation.
If you want to get started building on Stacks and push the mission forward of a user-owned internet with Bitcoin as the base layer. Check the links below.
 
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Love yall! 
See you in the next episode.
Peace!
 
 
Transcript

 What is up, you beautiful people. Welcome back to the built on the Bitcoin podcast where we cover all the innovation happening across the Bitcoin ecosystem. I'm your host, Gick Brown, which will see me around you. I have Oscar Mary on the podcast. So Oscar is the founder of a podcasting app called Fountain that integrates lightning as a way to give value to creators, but also get paid as a listener. So the ton you talk about as far as how to build in this web 3 web 2 crossover. What does lightning bring to the table and a bunch of other topics. I really think that this is one example of what the future of Bitcoin looks like where the use case is so abstracted that you can use it just as a web 2 podcasting app, just like you would Spotify, Apple, whatever. But if you want, if you so choose, you can hook up a lightning wallet, which they make pretty easy and get paid to listen. And there's some other features around discovery that are just, it's crazy that this hasn't existed yet. So it shows that there is still innovation to be had in web 2 world by far like in trench players, podcasting apps are not fully built out. So you can still definitely innovate in web 2 and do amazing things. But when you overlay them with something like lightning or crypto offers, you might have a perfect combo. So I love with their building. If you haven't used Fountain app, do check it out. Fountain.fm if you want to check it out. But yeah, without further ado, let's jump in. But first, a quick word from our sponsor. We all know bitcoins for the innovators, the revolutionaries and the builders, looking to build a better world for themselves and for the next generation. We also know the saying, the best time to plan to tree is 20 years ago. The next best time is right now. The same thing applies to building on bitcoin. If you want to come build with the most active developer community building new use cases for bitcoin, then it's time you make the leap to learning clarity. Clarity is the stack smart contract programming layer, which enables us to work on DeFi, smart contracts and so much more. All built with the safety and security that comes with bitcoin. Start today by going to start.stacks.org. Start.stacks.org has a five step journey that will take you from complete stacks novice to teaching you clarity all the way to finding a job with the web 3 stack startup. Don't wait another month, year or decade waiting to get involved in the bitcoin ecosystem. Start building on bitcoin today. Go to start.stacks.org to start learning and building today. Thank you to our sponsor as always. Now let's jump into this fantastic fantastic episode with the founder of fountain podcasting app, Oscar Mary. Welcome to build on bitcoin. Oscar, how you doing, my man? Good, Jay. Good to meet you. Likewise, my likewise, I'm excited to have this conversation. For those that are new to this podcast, I used to be a stack focused podcast and now bitcoin broadly and it's been super interesting to see all the different things going on across bitcoin proper, but especially on lightning. There's just so much going on, which is how I find out about you is is lightning and podcast 2.0 and value for value and all these things, which you know, I'm great for me as a podcasting myself. So there's a ton to talk about. But before we get to anything crypto related lightning fountain, let us hear a little bit about your background kind of professionally before you go into the crypto space. Yeah, sure. So originally studied engineering and been kind of a developer for a long time previously working for a big tech company and then had a previous business working in the voice application development space. So did that for a few years. And yeah, so it's always been in tech, been a developer for a long time. And yeah, we we sell fountain originally in 2021. Okay. And so I think I want to jump on this first because I've seen there's a lot of interest in web 3 in crypto, but there's still much more developers kind of in the web 2 world, whether it's the golden handcuffs of great jobs or whatever it is. I don't want to make the jump. So what kind of enticed you? Was it a rethinking podcasting first or was it lightning? Is this new way to rethink the creator economy or how would you decide like, I'm going to go jump into that new thing over there. Yeah, great question. So it actually was podcasting first and lightning second. So the original version of fountain that we built just as an experiment before we even decided to turn it into a business was all around the clipping mechanism that we have in fountain. So in the app as a listener, you can create clips of your of the podcast you're listening to. And we believe that this is a great way to share knowledge and insights that you discover in podcasts with the people that you follow on fountain, but also externally. If you think about podcasting as a medium, there's a couple of discovery problems. One is with the back catalog. So think of your favorite show. There's probably hundreds of episodes in the back catalog that you've never even listened to, even as a really big fan of that show. And then second to that, anyone that's really into podcast will probably know this problem of where you open up your podcast out in the morning or whenever and you'll see so many episodes you don't know which one to choose. And so there's a lot of content out there, but it's really difficult to browse. And this is something that audio in particular is difficult to do. So we've recently built the first version of fountain to give that power of clipping to the listener. And we were just we had that version of the app in in a prototype in beta. We were playing around with it. And again, this is before we decided to turn it into a business. But then at the same time, we saw what was happening with the Lightning Network and podcasting 2.0. And myself personally, I'd been a big believer in Bitcoin for many, many years before that. I never thought that I'd work with Bitcoin professionally. But when I saw the Lightning Network and what was happening with podcasting 2.0, it just clicked instantly and I was like, OK, this is this gives us programmable money as a tool as a developer tool. And that's something that is just that we've not really had before. And there's so much opportunity there. So we kind of jumped on it. And this is what it's a layer on the Lightning payments on top of the clipping. So when we launch fountain in August of last year, 2021, we launched with these kind of this dual proposition of create and share clips and also support your favorite podcasts over the Lightning Network. Got it. Which once you use it, it's like, it's hard to go back. It's kind of a crypto more broadly words. Like once you see Bitcoin and like this different kind of money, it's like the rest of the world kind of seems crazy. It's kind of nuts that what you guys had built just with the clippings between alone is like podcasting seemed like a mature space. But there's still so much innovation just in the web to work before you even get into Lightning. But and before we like the overlaying is super, it's just like a weird flywheel effect where it's like this because of that goes back into that. That's amazing. But before you go deeper into that, you you mentioned that you weren't going to turn into a business. You didn't have plans to. So and this is kind of interesting for me. We're like, I don't fully still grasp this open source mentality. It just seems so foreign to me to just like build to build and maybe you get funding, but there's no real tangible like my carrot. So what when you guys are kind of hacking away at building a better kind of discovery tool for podcasting, what's the impetus to make and want to build that? It's like, are you doing it in your free time and that kind of thing? Yeah. So I was quite lucky in that my previous business that I had, we actually sold that business. So I had the flexibility and time just to, you know, experiment. So I was lucky in that. But I would say, yeah, it is driven by curiosity and also the desire to learn a new technology. So specifically for me, mobile development was something that I hadn't done before. So I was like, I would like a project to work on that will enable me to learn mobile development. And so yeah, it was a combination of curiosity and wanting to learn a new technology because especially if you're a developer, you know, your day job might be in one stack or with one particular technology. And if you want to do something outside that you might not have the opportunity in your day job. So whether it's open source or whether it's a prototype app that you that you want to, you know, play around with, that's a great opportunity to learn and branch out into a different technology. So yeah, they were the main two reasons. And but I think, yeah, most developers will, will know that that's like a normal thing that people do, you know, whether it's evenings weekend or or whenever. Yeah, because you just like to take, you know, numbers and zeros and create something tangible and to see, see how it goes. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, that the clipping thing is interesting because you're right. Like the, the back catalog and how long podcasts are make it horrible for sharing because it's a commitment. And you see this with like, your friend will send you a YouTube clip. And it's like, if it's over five minutes, unless I know the person I'm already about to be watching, the chance I watched that and commit versus like I watch it on like that was a waste of my time not doing that again. You, you kind of go into it like kind of scared of my time, my precious time. And so the way that you guys, the way you're doing just the clipping part is like you take an episode and the user or the creator can create up create clips, which is already fantastic because there's a, there's a tension as a creator where I always need more time to create. And so like clipping is more times I need to give versus doing more podcasts or doing more prep for this thing. So it's a tension. And there's like a money aspect where it's like I could hire, but you know, podcasts are typically underfunded. So now you can put the user going to rate a content for for a two and let your, your true fans build clips. But then luckily you also bracket it with lightning where you can have this financial incentive for all parties involved. So I love to just to make that crystal clear because I once you use found it's like, oh my god, this is the future of podcasting and the future of the creator of kindness. I like kind of perceive it. I love this like in your own word, just kind of break down how this kind of process works. So people can understand this kind of like dance between the clipping function and what it serves and the lightning function. Yeah, happy to expand on that. And exactly how you explain that is how I think about it too, which is, you know, another example, like even your best friends or your family or you know, the people you're closest to, they could recommend you a podcast episode. But you're just going to be like, I don't have time for an hour on top of everything else to my busy life. You know, I've the chances of you listening to that episode are still quite low, even with a very strong recommendation from someone that's close to you. Whereas you're totally right, if someone sends you a one minute clip, you know, you're much more likely to listen to it. And then if you enjoy what you hear in the minute long clip, then maybe you'll go and listen to the full episode. So it's a much better way of, you know, sharing podcast content. And podcasters recognize this and, you know, build it into their growth strategy. Obviously, Joe Rogan, biggest podcaster in the world, he grew massively through his clipping strategy on YouTube. But obviously not as you said, not every podcaster has the time or money to do that. And also, you know, the best moment from an hour and a half episode in your opinion might be different to my opinion or something. But it's that person's opinion. So it also allows more of these highlights or moments to be shared in different ways, which just maximizes the chance for a podcaster that their content is going to get shared and spread and reach new audiences. So yeah, couldn't agree more with how you explain it there. And yeah, just to explain a bit more detail how the clipping is linked in with the lighting payments. So essentially, as a listener, you can create a clip on fountain. And that lives as an entity within the fountain app. It goes out to all of your followers on fountain and they can listen to that on fountain. You can also share those clips externally on other social media or web links. You know, you can export them as audiograms so that they're natively watchable or listenable on other social platforms. But then what we also have within the fountain app is what we call paid likes. So instead of liking a clip like you would on Twitter or Instagram or, you know, some of these older social platforms on fountain, when you send a like your sending Satoshi's over the lightning network to the person that created that clip, what this means is a couple of things. Number one, as a user on fountain, you can earn Bitcoin just by, you know, creating and curating content. And the more valuable your clips are the more you can earn. But then number two, and this is really important about how we see fountain in the long time is we think that by attaching a payment to the action of liking, the action becomes much more of a strong signal because liking something on social media is actually a very trivial action, whereas paying for something is less trivial. It's still trivial enough because of the low amounts in Satoshi values that, you know, you can still like a lot of clips just every day, but it's less trivial than just a normal like on social media. And we think that ultimately that will lead to better content discovery because we can really figure out what are the clips of podcasts that people are truly finding valuable. And then we can, you know, surface those clips that other users. So yeah, that's how the clipping works. And then, you know, there's lots more we can do there as well as as a podcast that you can create clips as well. And obviously you can view all of the clips that your audience have created and you can just pay them for creating those clips if you wanted to as well. Right. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. That's what exactly what it feels like is and it feels like I'm voting. It's not just a like anymore. It's a positive vote that this is quality. And like at least the way it currently structured, it is in the app. It's 10 sets by default for every kind of like tap. Is that that's not trained what right? That's just a default flow right now. Yeah, so it defaults to 10 sets per like and you can hit the like button as many times as you want, but you can actually change your like amount in the setting. So I have my like amount set to 210. You could set it to whatever you want. You could set it to a thousand, ten thousand. And the reason we do that is yeah, if somebody listens to an amazing clip and it has a profound effect on them, they learn something new, you know, they should be able to reward whoever created that as much as they want to. But yeah, the full is 10 sets. Got it. Yeah, there's, um, man, it's just like when I use this app, it's also when you go to your website, you guys don't put lightning at the very forefront. It's like, it's there if you're powered by lightning, but your very use case focus like where we're thinking the podcast app. But what's interesting when you start using it is like it does its job great of like I can enjoy all my favorite podcasts. When I get into podcasts, I've gotten 2.0 things to really get more interesting where I can, you know, stream, sat, spooch, tip. But people talk about the Bitcoin economy a lot and it's weird to like, we still think in dollars. So it's like how much BTC fraction can I get from my dollar? But when you use fountain and you start tipping, like you know your 10 sets is like fractions of a penny. And so it's, it's a vote when I click it and that's powerful because it's better than the like on Instagram. But I feel myself doing it like I'll push it 10 times. Like that's worth 100 sets. And it's like, it feels like a big number. But it's not because I know that can roughly the conversion rate, like my $5 gets me you know, 20,000, 15,000, whatever. It starts to like, it's the Trojan horse to actually feel what a Bitcoin economy starts to feel like because the sat's the native currency and I'm just tipping in sets. So it's, I don't know if I have a question that I'm just curious of like how you think about, maybe how you think about the creator economy broadly because lightning seems to change a lot of things. And I'm wondering how, how you think about how it's trading things across the internet to be able to transact in this kind of like, frictionalness almost freeway this instant. Yeah. No, it's interesting. I had the same experience as well. You know, the first time that I started thinking in sets and really like attributing like value to sets at that kind of micro level was after using fountain. You know, I feel, I know now, you know, how many sets are really good episodes deserves and like how that, you know, how that links back to, you know, how much I spend per month or other things. And you know, so I think it is really interesting that, yeah, it does make you, it's one of the missions that does make you think more in sets. So that's really interesting. And then in terms of more broadly, I think for podcasting that we're just solving that the great thing about what we're doing is you don't have to care about Bitcoin to get a lot of value out of Bitcoin on fountain because for podcasters and listeners, we are solving a problem. In podcasting, it's difficult for the audience to connect with the podcaster and for the audience to connect with other people in that audience. It doesn't really exist on Apple podcast or Spotify. And that's because RSS is fragmented across multiple apps and hosting platforms. And that's great because it means that podcasting is more decentralized. There's not one world garden that is dominating podcasting. That's a good thing. And we're really, you know, in open RSS. But what it does mean is that some of the, you know, social features that make, for example, the YouTube comments great don't exist in podcasting. And so what we're doing with boosts, and obviously we display the boosts in fountain and allow you to reply to boosts. And we also link that back into the social features. So if I follow you on fountain, I'll see when you boost an episode. And you know, forget about Bitcoin. That is solving a problem for podcasters and listeners that they don't currently have on other apps. And so I think that's the most important thing is, is not actually Bitcoin, but like what Bitcoin can provide, what problems it can solve. I think there's a lot more to do still. I think the biggest thing for us is, you know, obviously within the Bitcoin community, we've seen a lot of traction. We're starting to see a lot of traction outside of Bitcoin, which is really interesting. And it's for that exact reason, which is we're solving an actual problem. And we want to, we want to hide Bitcoin even more to be honest, just so that it's just, it's just there. It's just the technology layer underneath everything that makes all of this stuff work. But you don't need to have read the Bitcoin standard or, or care about the money philosophy of Bitcoin. Obviously, we're big believers in that. But you shouldn't have to care about that or know anything about that to use fountain to use Bitcoin on the Lightning Network. And to, you know, experience the new solutions that we're bringing because of that, like the engagement between podcasts and their audience. Right. How do you, because you see this criticism a lot in Bitcoin or Web 3 where people are trying to fit a use case into crypto. Why does it really need crypto and not really focus on the end user? And so it seems like you're kind of saying like we're a podcasting at first, just trying to help podcasters have what we can. Like if Lightning achieves that goal good. How do you guys think about that as far as like being able to create features or what makes the cut versus not? Because like, especially in Bitcoin, I could see like there's a shiny object syndrome that people have. So it's like it's kind of cool. You do the lightning thing and you guys are like one of the top players. So like you have the top ish top spot. So I could see it'd be easier for people to double down on that because it's kind of a golden groups. So how do you think about building features for your actual audience while still being able to build this new web 3 space? Yeah. Well, I think one thing that's been really great about, you know, you know, talking a lot about how we use Bitcoin and how we use the Lightning Network is we do have a strong group of users and who are advocates because they love what we're doing because their believers in Bitcoin. So that's been really helpful for us, especially at the early stage whilst we're, you know, working on getting feature parity with some of the bigger apps like Spotify or Apple Podcasts. That's been great because it means that we have an early user base that are forgiving when we have bugs or we don't have like CarPlay, which we just introduced in the last update. So that's been really, really helpful. But again, I do think that, you know, it found him should be successful and should be, you know, loved by loads of people without us ever mentioning Bitcoin or crypto or any of those words. It should be an amazing product without those words. Obviously, Bitcoin and Lightning is the only technology that allows us to have programmable money and actually deliver the product. But the product should work without us ever mentioning those words and the product should still be exciting enough without us ever mentioning those words. Got it. Yeah, I find myself having a hard time not to fanboy because of the way that you guys design it is like, it's just like you said, it works as a perfect podcasting app. It does all the things needed to do. It's easy to use. But as you're using it, there's always different little little tidbits where you're like, what does that Lightning Bolt thing do? What is this wallet button at the bottom do? And it becomes like the, your curiosity takes over. You're like, oh, wait, I can earn, you know, tiny frackings of a penny just for, you know, making the world aware of this interesting piece that is buried at minute 57 in this podcast. Yeah, it just seems like it crosses, it's one of the best examples I've seen so far of solving a web to, or just general purpose use case, but then bracketing it in a really easy way with crypto, which is historically really frustrating to get into. Yeah, exactly. And that's our goal. We want somebody to be able to, you know, start using fountain who has never heard of Bitcoin before and start using Bitcoin without even realizing that they are. And then suddenly they have Bitcoin in a wallet and, you know, they can, they can learn over time. That's why we introduce the listen to earn feature as well. So the way that works is as a fountain user, you get paid for your first hour of podcast listening every day. You know, sometimes it's just a small amount, maybe one set per minute, but also you have a chance each day of earning a lot more, you know, we've had some users earning, you know, a thousand sets per minute for their first hour. And the reason we did this is number one, we actually think that, you know, you should be rewarded for the time attention and value that you bring to the platforms that you're using. And so we think it's fair to reward you. But the second reason is we want to give people that have never purchased Bitcoin before, have never even heard of Bitcoin before, a chance to actually have some Bitcoin, send their first boost to a podcaster, you know, have sats in their wallet with draw sats to another lightning wallet, maybe. And we are seeing this, you know, we have a lot of users that have never heard of Bitcoin. And they're getting their first Bitcoin on fountain. So that's pretty exciting. That's cool. And it's kind of like in the NFT community, they do air drops to try and do that. And it's like, okay, that's cool. I guess it's interesting. Like you give me a random gate package back by the blockchain. Like thank you. But this is like, you're giving them, you know, this new interesting money that I wouldn't have been talking about. And you're saying like here, just do the thing you're already doing. Uh, here you go. And um, um, and just to make sure people are aware, what's the other ways that you guys interact with lightning? Because we talked about, um, tipping, which would go at the clip level. And there's boost. And then there's streaming sats is at the main three. And if they are, maybe you can just break down and really quickly. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I'll just talk quickly about podcasting 2.0 because this is the, um, you know, open format that fountain is building on top of. So podcasting 2.0 is a movement and an organization set up by Adam Curry and Dave Jones. And its mission is to preserve the open nature of podcasting and RSS and and try and, um, you know, keep podcasting open, but also extend open podcasting to include new features like, uh, you know, not just lightning or chapters, transcripts, um, you know, alternate enclosure, just extend podcasting and make it more feature rich. And so the podcasting 2.0 standard is what fountain uses to actually send boosts and to stream sat. So this is these are the lightning payments that go from listener to podcaster. So if you're listening to a podcast and you get value from that podcast, you can send value back to them over the lightning network. You can stream sats per minute. So I normally set 50 sats per minute or 100 sats per minute to stream to the podcast. So I'm listening to. And then if you hear something that you really like, or you want to leave a comment question or feedback, to that podcast, you can send a boost, which is kind of like a higher one off the mount. So that is the podcasting 2.0 payments that that fountain uses. And the great thing about, uh, that spec is that it works on multiple different apps. And again, this comes back to the problems we're solving for podcaster because now as a podcast that you can say to your audience, hey guys, send me a boost. And you don't have to say if you're on fountain, send me a boost here, or if you're on this app, go over there and do this. It works on every single app. And we believe that in the future, you know, every app will support this. So, you know, as a podcast that all you have to do is say, send me a boost and every, you know, use on every app will be able to do that. So it's an open system. So yeah, that's the podcasting 2.0 payments, which are listener to podcaster. And then we have the, the likes that we've already talked about. And this is fountain user paying fountain user. And then we also have the earnings features on fountain. So as I mentioned, fountain will pay every user for the first hour. But then we also have promoted content that enables you to earn more. So whether it's a podcaster looking to promote their show or an advertiser, they can sell promoted content within fountain. And you will earn like significantly more for listening to that content. And so yeah, they're the kind of like 3D categories of payments on fountain. Because lightning still seems early. It's growing very fast. For someone who's seeing what you guys are doing, you know, maybe they're a web 2wish company. And they're building for their users. And they want to integrate lightning in some fashion. They found a good stack or a good, like user experience they want to try out, make sense. Has it been difficult to try and build lightning technically? Like is the tooling stack the developer stack decent at this current pace or what reports on that? Yeah, I think so. I think it's getting better and better. I think it's definitely possible to integrate lightning. I think the biggest thing though is, as you mentioned earlier, it has to be built into the product experience at a core level. It can't be an add-on, otherwise it doesn't really add much value. So it needs to, it can't just be like, or add layer payments on top of this. There's no reason. It needs to be kind of solving a problem at the core level. Got it. And this is my really my last question. I have to end on a high note. And so I'm thinking like three, five years out, like you guys have been executing like mad, which by the way, you guys ship fast. It's almost like every week there's new change log update going out. So good rapid innovation there, which is nice to see. And they're big updates. It's not like hey, we changed the text on this thing and now it looks like that. It's like car play or import this or new streaming feature. But yeah, I'm imagining three to five years out, if you guys have been crushing it, you know, fountain, fountain is like one of the top podcast apps that people use in the world. Like what is what is the what is that ideal feature look like as you guys have been executing for fountain? Yeah, I think the immediate goal is just to get feature parity with the larger podcast app. So yeah, obviously last week we released auto play, queue, car play as an additional import features, which car play in particular was the number one requested feature. So that's the immediate goal. So that anyone who hears about fountain will be able to switch from whatever app they're currently using without losing any features. And we should we should hopefully get there very soon. More long term, I think that in fact, before I get to more long term, the second thing that we need to do is make it even easier to onboard to lightning. Obviously the earnings features that we have help people get their first Bitcoin. And that's great, but it's still small amounts. That right now if you want to deposit Bitcoin into fountain, it's quite difficult if you're new to Bitcoin and lightning. I think the onboarding for new people to Bitcoin and making it so seamless, that's a big challenge that we want to solve. And then more long term, I think we just want to make the discovery features even better. So you know, whether that's making the clipping even easier, it's still, we think the UI is great for clipping, but there's still a lot of work to do there. Whether it's other discovery features, like we actually have clip playlists, whether we have hashtags, like the ability to just kind of browse through various audio content and like find an interesting episode off the back of that. I think there's so much more we can do there. So yeah, I think, you know, in a few years time, ideally we do become one of the biggest podcast apps, but also what I would love is just for people to discover amazing audio content through fountain through the various discovery mechanisms that we have. As I said, you know, if people all over the world are sending money to a podcast, because they think that that content is incredibly valuable, that's a massive opportunity. And also, I'll just touch on more generally, like, you know, if you think about the incentives on existing tech platforms, you know, YouTube take that as the biggest example. Every single YouTuber is incentivized by the attention algorithm and the ad engine. And what that means is when you go on YouTube, if you search for something on YouTube, you'll see a million different videos of the exact same thing. And you'll probably click on one based on the, you know, caption or the, you know, the image or the title that's kind of like almost a bit click-batey. And then also, when you finally do click on that video, you'll probably find out that the video is twice as long as it needs to be, because again, creators on YouTube get paid per minute, depending based on the ads. So I think fundamentally, those incentives are bad for everybody involved. You have creators chasing the algorithm, and you have listeners that end up listening for longer than they need to. And also clicking on content that's not as not the most valuable for the thing that they're looking for. So I also think hopefully it once we have, you know, built up content a little bit more, we can start to solve that problem whereby, you know, if you're looking for content or if you're being recommended content, it is actually the most valuable and creators can optimize for the value not the attention. So yeah, that's what I'm most excited about long-term. Very nice. Yeah, that maps to why I found, and I initially got curious about Fountain, Lightning Podcasting is like, in my Utopian view, like ads don't serve the user. Like, the podcast has to do them because they're what day to get paid and they're going to monetize. And ads will always be there. Like, I'm not like unrealistic about it, but it just waste time that could be getting to the meat of the episode. And so if there's other ways that you can bootstrap yourself through value for value and Lightning, my hope in a perfect world is that ads become less relevant or just less time consuming. Like Lex Freeman does as well where he just like opens up this up with like, here's the sponsors and it has like six or seven different models that like very generic looking titles. It doesn't say anything else. Just like, if you want to help me, go help me. Let's get into the episode. And like, I would love that to be the norm, where it's like, if you want to support me, use my promo code because you like this episode. Thank you. You can also use value for value. That's even more direct. Links are below. Let's jump into this conversation with Oscar. Like, it'd be fantastic. If fountain is like one piece in that, you know, dominoe to push that feature forward. That would be cool. Yeah, 100%. Cool. Well, then, yeah, I got no more questions, man. This has been a fantastic episode. Any closing thoughts or things I didn't ask? No, I don't think so. I think that that was a great conversation. I really appreciate you having me on. And I would just say to anyone listening who hasn't tried out fountain. Like, yeah, give us a go. Just download. You can import from Spotify, Apple or OPML. And yeah, you'll get paid for your first hour of podcast listening in Bitcoin. So there's a great reason to try us out and, you know, earn for a few days on fountain. And then you can send your first boost for free as well, which is a great way to support your favorite show. So yeah, download fountain. Give us the try. And if you have any feedback, like I said, we're really focused on getting feature parity with the other podcast app. So there's something that you think is missing for fountain. Just feel free to send me an email, my email is oscarafountain.fm. And yeah, we can get back to you and we can get whatever you need to build. Beautiful. And if people are interested, where's the best links to find fountain? Try it out. Yeah, just go to fountain.fm and you'll see all the info there. Perfect. Oscar, I'm extremely excited for your building. I'm glad that you decided. I'm glad you exit your company and you started building the Sof Discovery podcast app because it's been great to use. So yeah, thank you for coming to show my man. It's been great. Yeah, thanks a lot for having me, Jake. Really enjoyed the conversation.